• Members 514 posts
    April 18, 2023, 11:31 a.m.

    Let me have a go at interpreting this picture with an example. My wife accidentally set her camera to ISO4000, then shot 2 week's worth of wildlife photography in blazing Namibian sunshine. The resulting images are very noisy, despite the intense sunlight.

    So, what she did by setting ISO4000:
    i) boosted amplification, resulting in slightly reduced read noise in the shadows.

    ii) She also told the camera to underexpose by 6 stops (and boost brightness to disguise this) resulting in a massive increase in the contribution of photon shot noise and thus a commensurate reduction in SNR. This also increased the risk of clipping.

    EDITED: Conclusion: The increase in shot noise vastly outweighs the reduction in read noise, significantly lowering SNR, hence the excessive overall noise despite the bright sunny conditions.

    Do I have that about right?

    Cheers

    Dave

  • Members 4254 posts
    April 18, 2023, 11:43 a.m.

    Pretty much, but I would have explained it slightly differently so I'm being a bit picky.

    Fwiw, it is a low Signal to Noise Ratio that makes noise visible.

    The higher the exposure*, the higher will be the SNR and so the less visible will be the noise.

    On a side note, did your wife really not notice for the whole 2 weeks that ISO was at 4000? 🤔

    * exposure - amount of light that struck the sensor per unit area while the shutter was open
    ** optimal exposure - the maximum exposure* within dof and motion blur requirements without clipping important highlights.
    *** under exposed - more exposure* could have been added with the DOF and blur constraints still being met without clipping important highlights.

  • Members 976 posts
    April 18, 2023, 11:47 a.m.

    That plus wanting details where SNR is low.

  • Members 514 posts
    April 18, 2023, 11:56 a.m.

    I think I mentioned SNR in ii)

    My wife hardly ever shoots with a dedicated camera, she's happy with her phone. The only time she shoots with a camera is when she does wildlife stuff. We spend some time refreshing camera operation before she goes, but she's not really prepared to sit down and spend a long time ingraining good habits.

    Her first trip, she had a point and shoot and got awful results.

    Her second trip she took a D100 and the Nikon 70-300 AFD which is not a lens known for its sharpness at 300mm with the inevitable much softer results than her friend got with her Canon 300D and 70-300mm IS USM lens.

    Her third trip she took a bridge camera and a m4/3 camera and got pretty decent results for an occasional amateur. But she had a lot of problems with the cameras - particularly the bridge camera whose lens is very sensitive about getting knocked and shuts the camera down. The lens got knocked a lot during the trip, very frustrating.

    For the latest trip, she had a new DSLR, image stabilised silent focusing lens, monopod... We practised before hand... Everything looked positive... But... she wanted to take photos of the glorious dark sky star fields. We has also practised this, choosing ISO and shutter speed to avoid star trails. And I think the ISO4000 probably came from that practice. And no, she didn't notice, because she's not an experienced photographer technically, and doesn't notice anything to do with the settings.

    We're beginning to think her wildlife trips are cursed. Maybe I'll have to go with her and supervise (I'm not a fan of doing wildlife photography. Far too frantic).

  • Members 142 posts
    April 18, 2023, 12:03 p.m.

    Your priority should be to avoid being blamed for the problem.

  • Members 514 posts
    April 18, 2023, 12:09 p.m.

    Went back and tweaked my conclusion to reflect your comments.

  • Members 4254 posts
    April 20, 2023, 6:11 a.m.

    Fixed it for you 🙂

    Since in another thread you said

    * exposure - amount of light that struck the sensor per unit area while the shutter was open
    ** optimal exposure - the maximum exposure* within dof and motion blur requirements without clipping important highlights.
    *** under exposed - more exposure* could have been added with the DOF and blur constraints still being met without clipping important highlights.

  • Members 549 posts
    April 26, 2023, 2:56 p.m.

    Actually, Live View on a DSLR can potentially have any of the shutter options: zero mechanical curtains, one mechanical curtain, or two mechanical curtains. Live view simply means that the view is from the sensor, and not from the ground glass in an OVF. I don't recall any Live View implementations that were "Silent-only" in a DSLR; the rolling shutter speed of EFCS is too valuable to omit.

  • Members 71 posts
    April 26, 2023, 3:07 p.m.

    Exposure = Light filtered by Aperture filtered by Shutter Speed. That's it.

    ISO is basically math to reset the digital numbers that result. There are reasons to do that or not do that (change the math), but neither is without consequence.

  • Members 457 posts
    April 26, 2023, 3:10 p.m.

    What do you mean by "the rolling shutter speed of EFCS is too valuable to omit?" The rolling shutter effect is the same with EFCS and mechanical shutter as both have a mechanical second curtain.
    BTW, because of the truncated quote, your post's context is unclear, especially since we do not have a threaded view yet.

  • Members 399 posts
    April 26, 2023, 3:29 p.m.

    Let's do a thought experiment and harken back to the early days of digital photography. The first digital sensor was flown in reconnaissance missions by the US in the mid 1970's. The chip was a CCD imager. In a CCD the charge generated by incident photons was "marched off" the sensor to a follow on processor which performed electronic signal processing to include amplification to support the signal levels required by the follow on ADC and quantization and the data then recorder, communicated back a processing center or potential to an image processing subsystem. The imager like film has a based sensitivity - X photons process Y charge and a dynamic range. The sensitivity translates to minimal detectable signal for follow on processing and is basically equivalent to base fog on film. There is no such thing as an "exposure triangle" that could be manipulated at will. The physics of the device determined the sensitivity and minimal detectable signal that determined the SNR.

    Off the CCD chip in the processing chip, the processing is no different than any digital signal processing system. Amplification is used to maximize the performance of the ADC. If the input is amplified - both signal and noise are amplified. The application can make the processed image "brighter," however, at a cost of adding noise since amplifiers are active devices and even low noise amplifiers have a noise figure greater than 0 dB. It was pretty cut and dry - the way you get more sensitivity is not by application but by designing it in the sensor. That is the information content cannot be changed after by the follow on amplification and ADC of the data off the CCD chip. There is no "preputial motion" machine, entropy is always increased and there is no free lunch.

    Now along comes advances in semiconductor fabrication and the circuitry of the chip can be integrated onto the sensor chip using CMOS and the CMOS sensor is born. It's no different functionally than the CCD imaging system with the exception the amplification can be accomplished on sensor. That gave birth to the misnomer of the "exposure triangle." While the concept of "exposure triangle" might be useful for cameras that only produce in camera JPEG's - it has little to do with raw capture. If one turns up the application - one amplifies both signal and noise with the addition reduction of SNR by SNRout=SNRin- NFdb where NFdb
    is the noise figure of the amplifiers. However, since JPEG's are 8 bit quantized vs 14 bit quantization of the raw the noise floor of the JPEGS is limited from the start.

    So yes the way it is talked about on the Internet and in a lot of introductory material the "Exposure Triangle" is misleading and unnecessary for understanding exposure which is simply the light energy captured by the photodetectors. However, it is related to the application and processing to produce the in camera jpegs - the underlying concept is helpful for getting the correct brightness of the in camera jpegs particularly for those who are only interested in 8 bit JPEGs vs. 14 bit raws. It just needs a new name.

  • Members 457 posts
    April 26, 2023, 4:26 p.m.

    Another issue is how to explain the role of ISO in the "exposure triangle." Typical and wrong explanations are: increases grain, increases sensor sensitivity, increases noise, etc. While ISO's role is mainly about regulating brightness, the aperture and the shutter speed have other, more critical functions than brightness.

  • Members 150 posts
    April 26, 2023, 5:16 p.m.

    I think I would just say ISO (above base ISO) is used to compensate (in a number of possible ways) for any shortfall in resulting image brightness due to insufficient exposure brought about by a lack of scene luminance and/or the settings represented by the other two sides of the triangle.

  • Members 1738 posts
    April 26, 2023, 5:21 p.m.

    For raw shooters, leaving out considerations about the raw developer and finder brightness, the ISO control represents tradeoff between read noise and clipping susceptibility, and can be set anywhere that the photographer thinks will provide acceptable read noise and clipping.

  • Members 976 posts
    April 26, 2023, 5:29 p.m.

    ...and given that the read noise is going down, down, down due to sensors being improved in that regard, the ISO settings above base (2 base settings can be said to be present in dual gain sensors) play a progressively smaller role in helping to suppress the effect of read noise.

  • Members 150 posts
    April 26, 2023, 5:44 p.m.

    Sure, but I think the question was how to explain ISO in terms of the “Exposure Triangle”. How do you explain all this other stuff to someone whose main frame of reference is a faulty triangle?

  • Members 457 posts
    April 26, 2023, 5:45 p.m.

    We need mirrorless cameras where ISO does not affect the EVF brightness (or focus) while still showing usable histograms.