• Members 19 posts
    June 27, 2024, 6:15 a.m.

    I do remember!
    Daniel Browning’s great essay on the subject ends like this:
    “ Overall, DPR is a great site and highly informative; but there are some important flaws, and the DPR war on pixel density is one of them. I'm disappointed to see that Bob Newman has been banned from DPR. I hope I wont be the next one up on the chopping block.”

    It was actually pretty shocking that people could be banned for stating factual information.
    Not the finest moment at dpr! Later they silently pulled the articles with misinformation. I never saw Askey acknowledging he was wrong let alone apologize….

  • June 27, 2024, 7:17 a.m.

    Sure, but the sense I get is 'name that is misleading' rather than 'name that someone applied wrongly'. The dictionary I looked at used as an example 'morning sickness', which leads one to think that it happens only in the morning when it can happen any time of day. The point I'm making is the what people call 'full well capacity' has these days very little to do with the capacity of the wells and whether they are full or not. Unless you dig deep into it, the natural assumption is that the size of the wells dictates their capacity, when it doesn't.

    Yes, but your argument was based on the size of the photodiodes directly affecting the 'FWC', which isn't really the case. It was that which I responded to. It's an example of terminology that I think is unhelpful because it leads people to make perfectly reasonable assumptions from the term which are wrong. The other problem, as I said, is that FWC is being used several different ways, and that adds more confusion. Does it mean the charge capacity of the potential wells, or the limits of the read-out circuitry or the limits of the ADC count. There are plenty of cases where the same sensor presents with different 'FWC' in different cameras, simply because the camera designers have configured pre-ADC gain differently. So the sensor measurers are not actually measuring the sensor, they are evaluating the usage of a sensor in a particular camera.

    I shouldn't think that there is, and if there was, it wouldn't make any difference - because that breakdown should never be reached in a properly designed pixel. Those transistors will be made as small as they can and still gives a breakdown above that required to give full output swing of SF.

    It's possible that some do it that way, but papers I've seen on GS sensors say that it is only PD that collects exposure charge.

    not 'less capacity' by itself, less capacity per pixel area (since we're talking about exposure). In the context of this discussion, where we're just talking about 24MP FF sensors, I suppose that's a given - but those important little qualifications have a way of wriggling out of the discussion.

  • June 27, 2024, 7:20 a.m.

    I stopped taking it seriously at that point and re-appeared under a number of aliases. I was re-instated by Simon Joinson when he took over. Unfortunately that Askey doctrine was followed by some moderators, who decided that what was 'factual' depended on which forum you were posting on.

  • June 27, 2024, 11:02 a.m.

    That's not the sense in which I was using it. I was using it to a word or phrase used in its accepted sense where its accepted sense is somewhat misleading. The important point is that I wasn't saying that you, personally, were misusing the word.

  • Members 2365 posts
    June 27, 2024, 11:28 a.m.

    😁

  • June 27, 2024, 1:30 p.m.

    Those are exactly the components that appear in my diagrams. My diagrams show how they are connected. Simplified models are great, but one has to beware that the simplifications don't lead to a faulty understanding - which is different from a simplified understanding.
    Also, if using the simplified models, avoid the jargon that goes with the full model.
    If I wanted to talk about a simplified model I'd discuss the maximum exposure that can be captured and the efficiency (I'd likely leave out the word 'quantum', since that scares some people) explaining that it is the percentage of the available photons that can be captured. Together those two tell you how low you can take your ISO setting and how noisy the outcome is likely to be. The electronic designers figures of merit for image sensor aren't really very useful to most photographers.

  • Members 695 posts
    June 29, 2024, 7:40 a.m.
  • Members 2365 posts
    June 29, 2024, 8:18 a.m.

    wow 6 years ago GB when i was the first to discover that the a7s3 was actually 48mgp binned and the s2 blew it away on noise performance 😁

  • Members 1963 posts
    June 30, 2024, 3:23 p.m.

    The question was: why is a 24MP sensor still a valid choice. It would be nice to get back to the original question.

  • Members 19 posts
    June 30, 2024, 3:58 p.m.

    I agree !
    Although your question more specifically was :
    ”24MP seems like a pretty low pixel count by today’s standards. What advantages does this relatively low MP camera have over cameras with 35-40MP sensors?”

    Maybe you could start by summarizing what you have learned so far?

  • Members 1963 posts
    June 30, 2024, 4:23 p.m.

    That there is no real tangible advantage to be had with a 24MP sensor, apart from file size. The other differences come down to hair splitting detail in the real world.

    I personally chose the Z7 over the Z6, for the possibility to have more detail.

  • Members 695 posts
    June 30, 2024, 5:57 p.m.

    Well, there is the difference in price, too -- the Z7 series costs significantly more than the Z6 series (same is true for the R6 series vs the R5 series). So, if 24 MP does the job for you, and the 24 MP body is every bit as capable as the higher MP body for your photography otherwise, then why pay more for what you don't need?

    Of course, the difference in pricing is artificial. It's not like the Z7 costs $1K more than the Z6 to make. But that's another discussion entirely.

  • Members 1963 posts
    June 30, 2024, 7:04 p.m.

    The first Z7 was a commercial failure. People wanted two card slots. I bought a mint low shutter count Z7i for €1000 as a second body.

    But the cost difference is a very valid reason. Even my 12MP D700 allowed for some quite big enlargements.

  • June 30, 2024, 9:08 p.m.

    Of course it's a 'valid choice'. Anyone is entitled to choose any kind of equipment they like and it's 'valid'. I use my Z6 quite a bit, even though I know my Z9's photos will be that bit more detailed. But for a whole load of things that bit more detail is not the most important consideration. I still use my mFT gear, even though that's only 16MP and has the DOF and achievable noise limitations associated with the system, because there are cases where that isn't the most important consideration.
    As for Nikon's choice, well in the end the market will pronounce on whether they should have gone for more pixels or not.

  • Members 695 posts
    June 30, 2024, 9:11 p.m.

    I'm wondering if there will be a Z7.3 that bridges the gap, both in terms of price and operation, between the Z6.3 and Z8. I would imagine so, but maybe Nikon can't produce that many lines in this market, and is simply going to force people to go low or high with MP count.

  • Members 1963 posts
    July 1, 2024, 4:42 a.m.

    Maybe I miss phrased my post. ( I wanted to get the thread back to civility after seeing the now removed posts). What, I meant to ask, is why has Nikon gone for a 24MP rather than lets say a 30+Mp sensor in their compact prosumer camera offering. I believe that most of those buying this camera, want a single camera to cover as many subjects as possible.

    I tried running M43 along side my Z7 based system for a while, but for my photography, I found different lens choices like going out with just the 24-200 or a bag full of lenses, made more sense, than running different systems. I do have the underrated Panasonic LX100, for when I really do need a pocketable camera though