• April 14, 2023, 6:12 p.m.

    Ever thought that some people would object to having their thoughts characterised as a 'rant'?
    Anyhow. This is the open talk area, so as good a place to discuss it as any.
    So, Hurter and Driffield, in a series of papers published between 1876 and 1890, established one by one the the basic concepts on which photographic practice was subsequently based. These included the modern concept of exposure, the concept of emulsion 'speed', based on a systematic method of measuring the effect of light on film, the characteristic (also called the Hurter Driffield) curve, the idea of 'correct' exposure, based on a rigorous definition, along with 'under' and 'over' exposure. For a century this was the basis of what beginners were taught about photography. Of course, they didn't learn all the thinking, discussion and controversy behind the work, they just learned the outcomes - that exposure was the illumination at the plane of focus times exposure time. That it was controlled by scene luminance, f-number and exposure time, that 'correct exposure' was an exposure that placed the range of scene luminance on the linear region of the characteristic curve. Fast forward to today, when most of the teaching materials available on the web are teaching something completely different - and if you argue those simple basics of photography on a beginners question forum, you'll be subjected to borderline offensive posts accusing you of engaging in PhD level technicalities and having p***ing contests.

  • Members 976 posts
    April 14, 2023, 6:20 p.m.

    A girl calls her father in the middle of the night, she can't start her car. Her dad is an IT guy. He mutters sleepily, "close the windows and open them again".

  • Members 245 posts
    April 14, 2023, 6:29 p.m.

    I know a rant when I see one; it certainly doesn’t count as reasoned exposition - and you don’t really address the issues you raised…

    1. Why are ‘web influencers’ responsible for the changes you see?
    2. What exactly is ‘internally inconsistent?
    3. What observed phenomena aren’t fitted?
    4. What is ‘subversive’ about the way exposure is learned?

    I’m quite in agreement with you about a general dumbing down to avoid difficult concepts, but that’s certainly not restricted to photography.

  • April 14, 2023, 7:04 p.m.

    Doubling down on being offensive? Go and read the draft users' guidelines. If I was someone that took umbrage easily, what you'd be doing here is starting the kind of acrimonious dispute that some people here complain about.

    Why? You'd have to ask them. Maybe they don't know any better. Maybe they just plagiarised someone else's (propagation of errors is a sure way of spotting. plagiarism). Maybe they don't want to be the one that doesn't fit in. What I do know is that I've gone through YouTube exposure explainers and have found just one that doesn't contain major errors. I add posts letting the authors know where they went wrong. Now the YouTube algorithm notifies me, so I've seen quite a few. Just one that isn't fundamentally wrong. And if you think I'm not right, link two that aren't wrong. And if you manage that, be honest about how many you needed to go through to find them.

    Typical is along the lines of 'exposure refers to the amount of light on the sensor' along with 'exposure is controlled by aperture, shutter speed and ISO'.

    for instance, the relationship between ISO setting and noise.

    It subverts the practice of photography, for which an understanding of exposure is central.

    Is that an excuse?

  • Members 1738 posts
    April 14, 2023, 7:06 p.m.

    I'll bet at the time there were people saying you're making this all too complicated; all you have to do is expose for the shadows and develop for the highlights.

  • April 14, 2023, 7:34 p.m.

    The main argument was with a fellow called Captain W. deW. Abney. The papers are full of very polite shades against his approach. I love this passage, from 'Measuring the density of negatives', published in 'Photography', 1890. 'Having ourselves criticised Captain Abney's photometer adversely, we cannot complain if his criticisms of our instrument are possibly more severe than they might otherwise have been. We would have passed no remarks on Captain Abney's instrument were it not that we know that a repetition of many of our experiments, if made with his photometer, would lead to entirely different and, as we believe, erroneous results.'

  • Members 2365 posts
    April 14, 2023, 8:44 p.m.

    Im still waiting after 300 posts why no one can explain what Ev"0" is in the image surely someone knows ,ive just had to ask Illah and waiting an answer.
    eloise crop.jpg

    eloise crop.jpg

    JPG, 26.5 KB, uploaded by DonaldB on April 14, 2023.

  • Members 243 posts
    April 14, 2023, 8:51 p.m.

    LOL!

  • Members 125 posts
    April 14, 2023, 9:31 p.m.

    What a sad perspective and depressive view onto this fabulous and beautiful world. Everything we humans create is art, our lives are art.

  • Members 4254 posts
    April 14, 2023, 9:34 p.m.

    It is not true that no-one has answered your query about EV 0.

    Iliah Borg answered it very clearly in his post at

    dprevived.com/t/raw-histogram-and-why-does-it-matter/1848/post/16287/

    His explanation of EV 0 is very clear. If you do not understand it then that is another matter.

    JimKasson also explained it to you prior to Iliah Borg's post.

    Just because you do not understand correct explanations does not mean no-one has answered your questions as you claim.

  • Members 125 posts
    April 14, 2023, 9:50 p.m.

    Yes, I still keep my inner child alive.

  • Members 2365 posts
    April 14, 2023, 9:54 p.m.

    oh no he didnt. because Illiah just posted the correct information. and this is why some people can teach or cant teach. It took Illiah 3 posts to explain his program and none of you and i mean none have explained it correctly to me in any posts.

  • Members 4254 posts
    April 14, 2023, 10:02 p.m.

    The information in Iliah's first post explaining EV 0 was correct.

    Which of his sentences are you claiming are not correct?

    His subsequent posts included additional information because his earlier post was not clear to you.

    Just because an explanation is not clear to you does not make it incorrect.

    JimKasson also explained it correctly to you prior to Iliah Borg's post, just not in as much detail.

  • Members 125 posts
    April 14, 2023, 10:07 p.m.

    I agree. And being an ignorant and arrogant self-proclaimed expert won’t lead to a successful venture.

  • Members 78 posts
    April 14, 2023, 10:08 p.m.

    It's a relative scale of raw data intensity in stops. Where do you want to start counting from? Clipping? Typical metered mid-gray? The absolute value doesn't matter, just count the stops from whatever reference you deem important to you.

  • Members 976 posts
    April 14, 2023, 10:16 p.m.

    As a photographer, where one would expect the zero on the meter scale to be? On all the cameras I used it is always the midtone, something intended to become a midtone.
    I wasn't explaining the program, we were discussing a very small aspect of it, and that's after Jim already gave the correct answer.
    The whole thing is a bit odd because we have the manual that explains the program, in detail.

  • Members 2365 posts
    April 14, 2023, 10:19 p.m.

    Teacher: Hey kids we are going to run a 100 meter race today. students, but teacher were is the start and finish line . teacher, in the playgrounds, students, but teacher we have 5 of them 🤣😂
    would like to continue but i have to go to work .

  • Members 4254 posts
    April 14, 2023, 10:22 p.m.

    @DonaldB

    Read Iliah's post just before your previous post.

    He also says JimKasson gave you the correct answer.