You've lost me here Dan. What you seem to be saying is that someone's ignorance is just as valid as another's knowledge?
Visual literacy has nothing to do with your ability to see an image and form an opinion of it. Like all other forms of literacy it's about being able to form ideas and communicate them effectively, (though no formal educational requirement is really necessary). Something that doesn't seem to be happening here.
I haven't referred to ignorance at all.
All I am saying is everyone is entitled to decide for themselves what they think of an image and whether they like it or not.
If they want someone's advice to help them make their own decision in the end, that's fine.
But no-one is under any obligation to accept other people's opinions or advice being imposed on them.
That's OK -- I'm about to do so. 😁
Here's the thing -- I'm completely ignorant with regards to art, and that includes photography. This is why I rarely critique people's photos -- I have no education in art and no vocabulary to explain why I like or dislike the photo. I mean, sure, I can say that the colors are "off" (too warm, too cool, or whatever), the contrast is too high or too low, the photo is too noisy, shadows are too dark/light, too soft/sharp, resolution too low, etc., etc., etc. with regards to my personal aesthetics.
However, I am also cognizant that not only are my aesthetics likely different from others', but that if I weren't ignorant with regards to art, many things that I see as flaws may not be flaws at all, but done purposefully. That said, I'm also of the opinion that when someone says that what I see as a flaw was deliberate, I am thinking it's more than likely the same as someone walking into a glass door saying "I meant to do that". 😏
But, for me, no worries either way. While I enjoy sharing my photos, in the end, the target audience for them is only myself. Thus, I don't feel the need to please others. I enjoy it when I do, but don't feel bad when I don't. If someone criticizes a photo I post, I take a look, and either agree, disagree, or feel ambivalent. If I agree, I try to reconvert/reedit the photo if that's a possible fix. Otherwise, I take note of it and hope I remember next time I'm shooting a scene where the criticism would come into play (fun fact -- no way, no how, will I remember unless I take the next photo within half an hour or so).
The only thing that annoys me with regards to criticism is when it is expected, either directly or implied, that I accept the criticism. 99.999% of people may agree with the criticism, but if I disagree, then I disagree. Of course, if so many agree with the criticism, that's also telling me I should make an effort to understand why they think that way. But you see, that word, "effort", is one of those trigger words for me that instills a fight or flight response. 😁
So, I don't mind people criticizing my photos. But, I do mind people taking exception to my disagreement with their criticism even if their criticism is right on target. Likewise, if I criticize someone else's photo, and they don't accept my criticism (e.g. "I meant to do that", "it doesn't matter", etc., etc., etc.), I just let it go. We disagree -- that's all there is to it. However, if I were posting a photo and comparing it to a photo one of the "greats" took (not that I'd ever, but...) then, for sure, I should expect to be pounded with criticism, and not get pissy because other people don't recognize that I'm just as good as the "greats" are.
With regards to the blurry portrait posted in this thread, I see nothing great about it. It's kinda cool, though -- I wouldn't criticize it for being blurry -- but nothing great. For example, here's a blurry photo that I took which I like a lot:
It was a snap taken from a moving car and I missed the focus. I processed the photo accordingly, and really like the result. But it was an accident that I made the best of. Now let's say some "great" photographer took a photo like that, but they did it on purpose, because they were going for that kind of look. OK, sure -- kudos to them -- I wish I had those skills, too, and, for sure, to get a photo like that on purpose does make one a "better" photographer than me (at least, in that regard).
But, I can't tell you why I like my photo, and I certainly couldn't tell you why I would try to take such a photo on purpose. That's where art education comes in, and, like I said, I don't have it. So if I see an "arty" photo like the one I just posted, I'm thinking, yeah, that was an accident, just like mine was. Even if they say it was deliberate because of yadda, yadda, yadda -- BS. It was an accident, it looks cool, and you're just trying to sound like you walked into the glass door on purpose. Then again, maybe you're Mr. Bean, and you did, indeed, walk into that glass door on purpose.
Oh! There's a whole Mr Bean episode right there - Bean buys a camera...
Thank you for your thoughts but it doesn't give me a reason to change my opinions posted earlier.
Of course everyone is able to make their own opinions. No one is trying to impose anything on you here.
Photography is clearly important to you. You spend a heck of a lot of time talking about it at all hours of the day and night. What I have been trying to suggest to you is that you would get much more pleasure from looking at photos and your contributions here would be more useful if you spent some time working on how to look at images. The reference I suggested to you doesn't tell you what you have to think. Your opinions may be/probably will be, way different to those of others. I know you know quite a bit about the tech side, I have been suggesting you work on the other side of photography, the images themselves.
In fact, in some of your responses in the Weekly C&C thread in the last few months, there have been some glimmerings that you have made some attempts in this direction. It's a path I think you would find personally rewarding.
I know I replied to your post, but my post wasn't referring to anything you said, specifically. However, I will address what I think you have said. Apologies if I get this wrong, but I believe you are saying that for you your opinion is as good as anyone else's opinion. OK, sure. In fact, I'll go one further: for you, your opinion matters more, 'cause even if you agree with what someone else says, you're just changing your opinion in their direction, so, in the end, it's still your opinion that matters.
But, what I think others are saying is, if you knew what they did -- not if you had their aesthetics -- but if you knew what they did about art, would you still have the same opinion? For example, let's say someone knowledgeable about art criticizes one of my photos and I totally disagree. But would I have disagreed if I knew what they did about art? Well, we'll never know, 'cause I don't know what they know, and I probably never will. But if I did, would I still disagree?
I think that's the point being made: others' opinions may matter more than yours, because others are more educated in art than you. It doesn't mean their opinions mean more to you, but to the "readership", they mean more. For example, I'm pretty good at math and physics. If I were arguing with someone ignorant in math or physics about something that deals with math or physics, my take matters more than theirs. Not to them (which is unfortunately way to obvious in current society), but to the readership, yes, it does. It doesn't mean I'm necessarily right (I thought I made a mistake once, but the mistake was thinking I had made a mistake, so... 😁), it just means that because I'm educated and work in that field, my opinion carries more weight than someone not educated and not working in that field.
And so it is for criticism in art. The opinion of someone educated in the field carries more weight. It doesn't mean they are right. It doesn't mean you have to agree. It just means their opinion has more "oomph" behind it than yours. For example, I'm not going to agree with a trained climatologist who says Global Warming is a hoax. But their opinion on the matter carries more weight than mine -- even though they're wrong. 😁
So, if someone is just posting photos for praise, I think they should say something like "Kind comments only, please!" Otherwise, the default should be that people can give their honest criticism, right or wrong. But the photographer is under no obligation to accept said criticism. And I think this is actually in line with what you've been saying, more or less. Again, if I got it wrong, my apologies.
We are going round in circles GB.
What I said earlier is that everyone can take the opinions they receive for whatever they believe it is worth to them.
If a person knows next to nothing about the concepts behind art they might or might not put much weight on opinions about their imagex they receive from people who claim to have some training in art because they might have reason to suspect the person claiming to have training in art to be BS'ing.
It's when people try to impose their opinions on someone else or when people critique other people's opinions, especially in forums like this, that conflicts arise.
People need to let the person receiving opinions from various sources to judge for themselves, unless they ask for assistance, how much weight they place on the opinions they receive.
A picture does not have to be perfect or even close to perfect to give some pleasure to people, so the concepts of art can be justifiably meaningless to many people when they create their images.
In that situation the opinion of a person trained in art can mean much less than the opinion of someone untrained in art.
So it all comes down to what I said earlier - that everyone can take the opinions they receive for whatever they believe it is worth to them.
Art 😁
That's as good a recipe as any for stagnation.
Art? or Communication...?
It depends on what the final goal is.
The path to what goal is being stagnated?
I am making a wild guess but I suspect the concepts and principles behind art is close to the last thing, if at all, the overwhelming majority of people who post images in forums like this think of when framing a shot.
So I wonder what percentage of people posting images in forums like this place much emphasis or weight on art training based critiques of their images.
It's the head that stagnates. But if you are happy with that... so be it.
I don't know anyone who lines up a shot and thinks "I'm making art." Neither is it about doing an Arts course. Again, your lack of understanding about what is being discussed here is breathtaking. Especially in someone who spends so much time telling people about their images.
I suspect you are telling us about your approach to life in general. David, I can see no point at all in us exchanging views on anything.
But I acknowledge having learnt something from you. I have recorded these posts on screenshots.
I think an art is being practiced and I've got a fair idea what's being communicated.
Yes I believe so.
Art has been used in this discussion as an example. And Donald posted a pic titled Art. In this pic I saw it as Communication and I thought that was relevant to the theme of the thread...
In that case, then since nothing is resolved and all we have is a variety of opinions in this thread, it comes back to everyone putting as much or as little weight as they feel is appropriate for them on whatever critique they receive for their images in forums like this.
Artistic concepts were just being used as an example. I could have an idea / opinion about something wrong with my car. The mechanic - being more experienced - may or may not agree.
The point that has been raised in this thread is experience and how it relates to our perceptions / opinions. To gain experience we need to be open to new concepts so we can broaden our perceptions.
The overall point has been that if we view things in black and white (excuse the pun - I don't mean as a b&w pic), with a narrow perception, we will often miss the intent of the work we are viewing. When we see the intent of the work, other minor things mostly don't matter.
What Mike, Nigel and GB have been trying to get across is that there are other potential viewpoints. It helps to continue to broaden them.
That is true but everyone has different interests, ambitions and the way they want to develop their skills in photography.
