Oh dear.
Oh dear.
Did you actually test the two side by side, or are you relying on what what folks say?
I did test the two side by side, along with a D3S, a D3X, a 1DX mkii, and a D800. Nikon, Canon, and Sigma lenses.
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And by your own admission, you clearly haven't:
I have no interest in trying Canon though, but I want to understand if Nikon is doing something worse.
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Why would you argue with others who have compared the R5 (and many other cameras) against the Z7ii, when you haven't and have no intention to do so?
I also have to ask, who is the one trolling here?
Nikon Z AF
Can we be candid now and discuss this without the bias and protectionism I and many others seen on dpreview of the Z cameras?
...ignore my last response to your question... management hasn't been coerced into deleting Nikon's dirty laundry posts yet but Nikon's Shill Team 7 has already jumped into action.
@primeshooter has written:Nikon Z AF
Can we be candid now and discuss this without the bias and protectionism I and many others seen on dpreview of the Z cameras?
...ignore my last response to your question... management hasn't been coerced into deleting Nikon's dirty laundry posts yet but Nikon's Shill Team 7 has already jumped into action.
Oh, can we call you a Canon shill? Is that the game we're playing?
I wish I got paid to call people out and talk about the equipment I enjoy shooting with. Sadly, I have to pay for all my own stuff and do this for free.
If you hate nikon why are you even here?
@jfw has written:What’s the link to your objective tests? Would like to review. Thanks!
Part of it can be found here:
www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4694538?page=4#forum-post-66817732
Thanks! It did answer my question re: which specific scenarios he finds the Z7 AF deficient.
@XRay has written: @primeshooter has written:Nikon Z AF
Can we be candid now and discuss this without the bias and protectionism I and many others seen on dpreview of the Z cameras?
...ignore my last response to your question... management hasn't been coerced into deleting Nikon's dirty laundry posts yet but Nikon's Shill Team 7 has already jumped into action.
Oh, can we call you a Canon shill?
Sure. Speak freely. I would even agree that it seems plausible. But no, not a Canon shill. Not currently part of any web forum marketing campaign.
Rest assured, I'm simply a life long Nikon shooter who absolutely loves his D5, and hated his Z7ii.
I wish I got paid to call people out and talk about the equipment I enjoy shooting with. Sadly, I have to pay for all my own stuff and do this for free.
I agree! And yup, me too. And I've even had to pay for the Nikon gear I hated.
If you hate nikon why are you even here?
Because sometimes my friend, the companies we love won't do better unless we force them to.
www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4694538?page=4#forum-post-66817732
Mike, great post. Not sure how I missed that one. Let's hope you can find the time to post here more often.
Since then, I have acquired a Z7-II, but have not yet shot it in the studio to see if it does better.
Oh, don't worry. There won't be any surprises.
it is safe to assume that CAF/tracking with R5 is better than Z6/Z7
You started the thread with the words "Can we be candid" - so lets be candid.
Something like Lightroom performs to a dramatically better standard than 2 months ago - but it is not free.
Lets be candid.
Common sense indicates a more recent camera at a distinctly higher price point than the Z7 should perform in some (but not all) situations to a higher standard.
People with common sense know this - implying you either lack common sense - or you are brand bashing for the sake of brand bashing.
I know several excellent studio guys and I have seen the problem myself. If you don't shoot studio work you don't know how bad it is for that use case.
Once again you repeat what you say others say - I do shoot studio work - and know a lot of others who do.
None have focus or exposure problems ( if this is the unspecified problem you are referring to) - whether they shoot Nikon, Canon or Sony.
Do you only fraternise with photographers who may be as incompetent as you seem to be - and do you identify what reported problems might be?
On my first point maybe yes - on my second point it seems no.
Is lack of cross AF sensors a factor here?
Times move on - and so does technology.
While cross type sensors can sometimes have an advantage on a camera that does not have AI, the Z7 and to a higher standard the Z9 can utilise AI to first detect a person, then a face, then an eye in a fraction of a second to a better standard than a cross type sensor.
@primeshooter has written:I know several excellent studio guys and I have seen the problem myself. If you don't shoot studio work you don't know how bad it is for that use case.
Once again you repeat what you say others say - I do shoot studio work - and know a lot of others who do.
None have focus or exposure problems ( if this is the unspecified problem you are referring to) - whether they shoot Nikon, Canon or Sony.
Do you only fraternise with photographers who may be as incompetent as you seem to be - and do you identify what reported problems might be?
On my first point maybe yes - on my second point it seems no.
What is more likely. The Z7 has issues in the studio or that anothermike, myself and a huge myriad of colleagues don't know how to use cameras or strobes? Do you really think anothermike doesn't know what he's doing with a camera and strobes? Are you actually serious right now because this feels like satire to me. Your track record on nikon "problems" is very poor, all you have ever done is deny all issues and point to the focusing part of the manual for the camera. In this very thread, you still deny there was a problem with the D800's focus system to this day, which frankly is beyond ridiculous. Let me reiterate, I helped break the issue, and I was...correct along with several others! I like to point out issues so other buyers can make informed decisions, and so ultimately nikon fix the damn problems! You probably don't realise the D800 also had a design flaw with it's subframe which even with light knocks could cause it to crack (this was redesigned in the D810). This was reported by Thom Hogan and I have other sources too if you are going to try to deny that also. Maybe it is you, that is incompetent at looking at the facts and conducting critical thinking. I think all I have ever seen you do is deny every issue ever mentioned on dpreview for the most part.
Photographer's as incompetent as me? Wow, that's, that's like quite a sweeping statement from a guy who I believe has never shared an image or probably seen what I do, but thanks.
@Mackiesback has written: @primeshooter has written: @Mackiesback has written: @primeshooter has written: @LanceB has written: @primeshooter has written:Can we be candid now and discuss this without the bias and protectionism I and many others seen on dpreview of the Z cameras? Are there any folks here that have shot canon and sony that have tried the Z9 and have direct experience? My personal experience is such that the R5, beats the Z6/7 I and II variants so much so that it isn't even funny, the R5 wins hands down in every situation and is simpler to be in the correct AF mode, etc etc. It is very clear that dpreview moderation attempted to hide any complaints of the AF system in the bodies I mention. The R5 AF system is so far in advance of those nikon bodies.
Now what about the Z9 (as I am thinking about the potential in the Z8 AF system). There seem to be mixed reports that even with the Z9 it isn't there yet, not R8/R3 levels. Is there anyone out there has honestly used both systems extensively can comment? What is the real story...in terms of AF reliability vs Canon / Sony and tracking performance.
You have had a long history of dissatisfaction with Nikon so, I don't know why you don't just go with the Canon R5 if you've found it works for you. If Canon (or Sony) has the cameras and more importantly the lenses, then buy either that suits your needs. If you do buy the Z9 you will always be wondering whether the Canon R5 or Sony A1 might just be that little bit better, there is no need to beat yourself up over it, just sell your Nikon gear and buy Canon or Sony and be happy, move on.
However, I have a good friend that shoots the Canon R5 and we both go shooting birds and I can assure you he isn't getting any more keepers than I with my Z9, in fact I think I am more successful, but that may be just technique or lenses used. Is that definitive? No, as we are probably not pushing our cameras to the extreme like some would like to think that they need to do. However, I will say one thing, he covets the Nikon 400 f4.5 VRS, the 500 f5.6 PF and the 800 f6.3 PF, he isn't all that happy with the Canon RF lens offerings nor the prices. But, like cameras, lenses are updated and new ones released all the time.
I am not going to try to convince you one way or the other as I really don't care what you shoot with but it just seems as though you are ready for a change due to your prior dissatisfactions with Nikon and it seems as though you need to try another brand, it may be time to move on.
Not at all, I don't have any problems with the D850, or D810 for what I use them for. The R5 does not work for me, if you read back I gave a reason. I merely added that in her to show how poor the Z7 AF system is, that was all. I never said I would buy or want a Z9 either. PS I am not beating myself up either, just seeking the truth from folks that have used all or at least two of the flagships. They after all are really going to be the only ones who can compare them and their AF abilities. Rf mount is too closed in terms of lens selection, I already know this. I was commenting on the AF system only, not the rest of the system. My post was all about - as Alan the mod clearly got, the true AF abilities of the Z9 and what that might mean for the Z8 if and when it comes along. To work out that story, we need to at least asertain that the Z9 can play in the same league as the R5 don't we?
Regarding your buddy with Z9 / R5 good! We are getting somewhere, finally. This is exactly what I asked, the real story of how they compare. So it does sound promising that if the Z8 has the Z9 AF system it will at least match the R5. This was what I was asking, without all the defensive posts about how the Z9 is great and this and that...
No need to be resorting to the move on thing, I have clearly explained what I was discussing, (I'll say it again, the Mod here Alan got it loud and clear and he has posted here saying so) let's calm down on the defensive posts and look at the brand with a critical eye without the rose tinted glasses as soon as anyone suggests one brand might have a better AF system, or this or that.
If only you could ask the simple question without resorting to conspiracy theories about pulled posts and camera sales, you would get the feedback that you want. Its not that hard to figure out but you two always go down the same path. Lather rinse repeat.
Ah so I have to ask it in a way that you like. Well sorry, I will continue to point out blatant bias and favouritism to certain products if I notice it, so that's why I mentioned it in the first post. As long as bias does not continue here that will fade with time. The fact you think it is a conspiracy though, suggests you were not clearly aware of what happened there on a day to day basis.
Your actual question is very fair. If only we could be convinced that you actually want an answer rather than continuing your dirty laundry from DPR. Time will tell.
The question is fair but would have got pulled at dpreview.I respect anothermike's talent and ability and analytical approach to things and he too complained about the focus from his Z9 in a studio setting. He keeps his 850 for that and uses the Z9 for everything else, iirc. I would love it if he jumped on and explained what the issue is for those of us who don't shoot in the studio, I would love that. But, sadly, he tends to avoid threads that start like this.
Maybe he does and that is his choice. I know several other posters' having this specific issue and there is sadly no fix - it's the AF system. PS, it's not a Z9, it's a Z7 he is talking about. And again, if he posted that on dpreview it would have likely got pulled. like any other thread I saw that disappeared when someone had a question about the Z7 focus system...
As evidenced, the post didn't get pulled because it is him posting it. You guys have somehow fabricated the narrative that all your posts are being pulled because Amazon is telling DPR that they need to sell more Z cameras and to pull everything negative. I find it quite comical that you think your posts are that important and that that is the reason. The reason your posts got pulled was because of how you and TO interact with people. Hell, TO lasted about 15 minutes at Miranda, many people there said they came to Miranda to get away from people like you guys. So if you need conspiracy theories to explain why your posts got pulled, knock yourself out. Just be aware that a lot of people don't see it that way.
Hell, in your OP, if you had just posted the 2nd paragraph and not the first, you would have gotten honest answers. But no, you gotta do you. Tossing out terms like fanboy etc. Ugh
If you and Lance are not comfortable with the question/s, why don't you just stay out of the thread? Neither of you are contributing anything towards answering the question, so why be here?
Because I enjoy reading about peoples experiences with the gear quoted. Hopefully without all the drama. I even stated specifically that I thought the question was ligit without the black helicopters pre-amble. So what gear that Primeshooter listed do you own? And since you question why I am in this thread, right back at ya....why are you in this sub-forum? You don't even have a Z.
You probably don't realise the D800 also had a design flaw with it's subframe which even with light knocks could cause it to crack (this was redesigned in the D810)
Mostly by changing the material from magnesium alloy to plastic, which is a lot less brittle. Thus the D810 is less 'pro' than the D800, though equal or better in every other way.
The moment management believes Nikon could potentially become a candidate for future ad revenue, Nikon's dirt will immediately be swept under the rug... along with those who are exposing it.
I doubt it - at least whilst I'm within the 'management'. One of my complaints against DPR at times was a lack of editorial integrity (not down to individual authors, people like RB are good an principled journalists) - not a route where I'd want to go. In any case, this site is by its articles of association not-for-profit, so the most we'll use adds for (if we ever do) is to pay the operating costs, no more.
While cross type sensors can sometimes have an advantage on a camera that does not have AI, the Z7 and to a higher standard the Z9 can utilise AI to first detect a person, then a face, then an eye in a fraction of a second to a better standard than a cross type sensor.
More's the point, people don't seem to be complaining about Canon or Sony mirrorless AF (at least on this forum) and they don't use cross-point sensors either.
You started the thread with the words "Can we be candid" - so lets be candid.
I did not start the treade or use any such wording - so I am not sure whom you are addressing ...
@primeshooter has written:You probably don't realise the D800 also had a design flaw with it's subframe which even with light knocks could cause it to crack (this was redesigned in the D810)
Mostly by changing the material from magnesium alloy to plastic, which is a lot less brittle. Thus the D810 is less 'pro' than the D800, though equal or better in every other way.
The design improvement was needless to say a improvement however...