That's just plain weird. You could also say velocity increases with brake pedal application. Or sunburn risk decreases with exposure to sunlight.
[quote="@ErikWithaK"]
The term “overexposure” really ought to only be applied to an excess of sensor exposure (Scene lighting + Aperture + Shutter Speed) resulting in unintended clipped highlight detail at base ISO. While undesirable highlight detail clipping can also be caused by an excess of pre-ADC ISO brightening being applied to a (non-clipped) base sensor exposure, this needs to be considered independently, IMO.
While “optimal” exposure could be considered as the brightest important highlight detail being recorded just below clipping at base ISO, with significant exposure below that being considered “underexposed”, if there isn’t enough available light to fully saturate the sensor, I would also consider setting the maximum amount of sensor exposure possible without compromising the necessary SS/Aperture settings required for avoiding DOF and/or motion blur issues to be “optimal” exposure in that situation. Using a lower than optimal exposure here with an unnecessarily high ISO setting should also be considered “underexposure” in my book. Whether the resulting mid tones initially appearing too bright or too dark have nothing to do with being optimally exposed (at least for the RAW shooter). The jpeg shooter should also try to maximize sensor exposure when possible, but sometimes compromises will have to be made if an optimal SOOC jpeg is of primary importance.
Over exposure produces images which are lighter than desired in the final image and is the result of capturing more light than required. Under exposure produces images which are darker than desired in the final image and is the result of not capturing enough light to produce the desired final image. Over and under exposure can occur regardless of the ISO / EI (exposure index) chosen to produce the desired final image.
While underexposure and overexposure will make an image lighter or darker, to ensure the best possible signal to noise ratio and maximum dynamic range, optimal exposure is about recording as much sensor exposure as possible without blowing any important highlights (or compromising DOF/motion blur etc.) and can easily result in an initially too light or too dark image.
Clearly, this RAW image initially appears too dark, but was it underexposed?
Not if you wanted the highlight detail intact it wasn't...
Producing the desired final image requires accurate exposure for the lighting conditions combined with the required signal or image processing. Optimum exposure is one component of the choices and compromises made by the photographer to balance light, exposure, and processing for the best achievable result.
Sure, but image brightness and exposure should be considered and handled independently, they are not the same thing.
@TechTalk has written: @JimKasson has written: @TechTalk has written:Density increases with exposure regardless of whether it is transparency or negative film. Negative film simply offers more latitude for error with acceptable results.
The first sentence above is incorrect. At zero exposure, negative films have their lowest density, development held constant. At zero exposure, 'chromes, reversal films, transparency films (whatever you want to call them) have their highest density.
I simply said that "Density increases with exposure" but didn't specify whether that meant greater or lesser exposure.
That's just plain weird. You could also say velocity increases with brake pedal application. Or sunburn risk decreases with exposure to sunlight.
Please see my previous reply. It's the processing, standard or reversal, which determines where density accumulates in an image. It's not weird that we have the option of reversal processing of film which also reverses the effect of exposure increases or decreases.
Fortunately, there is no switch in your car that reverses the function of the accelerator and brake pedal.
@JimKasson has written: @TechTalk has written: @JimKasson has written: @TechTalk has written:Density increases with exposure regardless of whether it is transparency or negative film. Negative film simply offers more latitude for error with acceptable results.
The first sentence above is incorrect. At zero exposure, negative films have their lowest density, development held constant. At zero exposure, 'chromes, reversal films, transparency films (whatever you want to call them) have their highest density.
I simply said that "Density increases with exposure" but didn't specify whether that meant greater or lesser exposure.
That's just plain weird. You could also say velocity increases with brake pedal application. Or sunburn risk decreases with exposure to sunlight.
Please see my previous reply. It's the processing, standard or reversal, which determines where density accumulates in an image. It's not weird that we have the option of reversal processing of film which also reverses the effect of exposure increases or decreases.
Fortunately, there is no switch in your car that reverses the function of the accelerator and brake pedal.
What I was saying is weird was your attributing the meaning that you did to your construction in this phrase: "Density increases with exposure". Not the fact that we have reversal and negative films.
While underexposure and overexposure will make an image lighter or darker, to ensure the best possible signal to noise ratio and maximum dynamic range, optimal exposure is about recording as much sensor exposure as possible without blowing any important highlights (or compromising DOF/motion blur etc.) and can easily result in an initially too light or too dark image.
Clearly, this RAW image initially appears too dark, but was it underexposed?
Not if you wanted the highlight detail intact it wasn't...
@TechTalk has written:Producing the desired final image requires accurate exposure for the lighting conditions combined with the required signal or image processing. Optimum exposure is one component of the choices and compromises made by the photographer to balance light, exposure, and processing for the best achievable result.
Sure, but image brightness and exposure should be considered and handled independently, they are not the same thing.
No argument here. It's always a balancing act to achieve the desired result or to make the compromises which best represent your intent.
What I was saying is weird was your attributing the meaning that you did to your construction in this phrase: "Density increases with exposure". Not the fact that we have reversal and negative films.
Thanks. I already clarified my intention in an earlier post above: "The implication which was intended is that exposure density is directly related to the amount received (how much or how little) by any type of film."
@TechTalk has written:[quote="@ErikWithaK"]
The term “overexposure” really ought to only be applied to an excess of sensor exposure (Scene lighting + Aperture + Shutter Speed) resulting in unintended clipped highlight detail at base ISO. While undesirable highlight detail clipping can also be caused by an excess of pre-ADC ISO brightening being applied to a (non-clipped) base sensor exposure, this needs to be considered independently, IMO.
While “optimal” exposure could be considered as the brightest important highlight detail being recorded just below clipping at base ISO, with significant exposure below that being considered “underexposed”, if there isn’t enough available light to fully saturate the sensor, I would also consider setting the maximum amount of sensor exposure possible without compromising the necessary SS/Aperture settings required for avoiding DOF and/or motion blur issues to be “optimal” exposure in that situation. Using a lower than optimal exposure here with an unnecessarily high ISO setting should also be considered “underexposure” in my book. Whether the resulting mid tones initially appearing too bright or too dark have nothing to do with being optimally exposed (at least for the RAW shooter). The jpeg shooter should also try to maximize sensor exposure when possible, but sometimes compromises will have to be made if an optimal SOOC jpeg is of primary importance.
Quoted message:Over exposure produces images which are lighter than desired in the final image and is the result of capturing more light than required. Under exposure produces images which are darker than desired in the final image and is the result of not capturing enough light to produce the desired final image. Over and under exposure can occur regardless of the ISO / EI (exposure index) chosen to produce the desired final image.
While underexposure and overexposure will make an image lighter or darker, to ensure the best possible signal to noise ratio and maximum dynamic range, optimal exposure is about recording as much sensor exposure as possible without blowing any important highlights (or compromising DOF/motion blur etc.) and can easily result in an initially too light or too dark image.
Clearly, this RAW image initially appears too dark, but was it underexposed?
If you could have used a slower shutter speed and/or wider aperture and still met your dof and motion blur requirements without clipping important highlights, then yes, it is under exposed*. Otherwise no.
To maximise the quality of the raw data, at least with regard to minimising visible noise, you need to get as much light as possible onto the sensor while the shutter is open within your dof and blur constraints without clipping important highlights.
* exposure - amount of light striking the sensor per unit area while the shutter is open.
Not if you wanted the highlight detail intact it wasn't...
Quoted message:Producing the desired final image requires accurate exposure for the lighting conditions combined with the required signal or image processing. Optimum exposure is one component of the choices and compromises made by the photographer to balance light, exposure, and processing for the best achievable result.
Sure, but image brightness and exposure should be considered and handled independently, they are not the same thing.
[quote="@ErikWithaK"]
[quote="@TechTalk"]
[quote="@ErikWithaK"]The term “overexposure” really ought to only be applied to an excess of sensor exposure (Scene lighting + Aperture + Shutter Speed) resulting in unintended clipped highlight detail at base ISO. While undesirable highlight detail clipping can also be caused by an excess of pre-ADC ISO brightening being applied to a (non-clipped) base sensor exposure, this needs to be considered independently, IMO.
While “optimal” exposure could be considered as the brightest important highlight detail being recorded just below clipping at base ISO, with significant exposure below that being considered “underexposed”, if there isn’t enough available light to fully saturate the sensor, I would also consider setting the maximum amount of sensor exposure possible without compromising the necessary SS/Aperture settings required for avoiding DOF and/or motion blur issues to be “optimal” exposure in that situation. Using a lower than optimal exposure here with an unnecessarily high ISO setting should also be considered “underexposure” in my book. Whether the resulting mid tones initially appearing too bright or too dark have nothing to do with being optimally exposed (at least for the RAW shooter). The jpeg shooter should also try to maximize sensor exposure when possible, but sometimes compromises will have to be made if an optimal SOOC jpeg is of primary importance.
Over exposure produces images which are lighter than desired in the final image and is the result of capturing more light than required. Under exposure produces images which are darker than desired in the final image and is the result of not capturing enough light to produce the desired final image. Over and under exposure can occur regardless of the ISO / EI (exposure index) chosen to produce the desired final image.
While underexposure and overexposure will make an image lighter or darker, to ensure the best possible signal to noise ratio and maximum dynamic range, optimal exposure is about recording as much sensor exposure as possible without blowing any important highlights (or compromising DOF/motion blur etc.) and can easily result in an initially too light or too dark image.Clearly, this RAW image initially appears too dark, but was it underexposed?
Not if you wanted the highlight detail intact it wasn't...
If you could have used a slower shutter speed and/or wider aperture and still met your dof and motion blur requirements without clipping important highlights, then yes, it is under exposed*. Otherwise no.
Shot as base ISO to maximize DR, with highlights recorded just below clipping (-4EV, resulting in ISO 200 instead of ISO 3200 with no exposure compromise).
To maximise the quality of the raw data, at least with regard to minimising visible noise, you need to get as much light as possible onto the sensor within your dof and blur constraints without clipping important highlights.
* exposure - amount of light striking the sensor per unit area while the shutter is open.
Yes.
Quoted message:Producing the desired final image requires accurate exposure for the lighting conditions combined with the required signal or image processing. Optimum exposure is one component of the choices and compromises made by the photographer to balance light, exposure, and processing for the best achievable result.
Sure, but image brightness and exposure should be considered and handled independently, they are not the same thing.
I would have left the iso at 3200 and set the final image lightness in post.
For many cameras raising iso for a given exposure* reduces read noise.
By lowering the iso you probably increased the read noise.
It depends on which is more important, read noise or dynamic range.
I would have left the iso at 3200 and set the final image lightness in post.
For many cameras raising iso for a given exposure* reduces read noise.
ISO 3200 would have nuked the highlights (4 stops beyond clipping). This was an extreme scene with ridiculous dynamic range. This was as much a technical ISO invariance exercise as a an attempt to take decent shot. The highlights where recorded just below clipping at base ISO
By lowering the iso you probably increased the read noise.
.Yes, but just a bit,
It depends on which is more important, read noise or dynamic range.
In this case there was no choice, any increase in ISO would have necessitated a reduction in sensor exposure (which would be worse).
I must say, the old DPR forums were more intuitive to use than here. This will take some getting used to.
When someone says an image is over or under exposed they are in effect just guessing as to whether the best exposure was used or not by the photographer unless they are certain of the photographer's artistic intentions.
This is not true for film, where an examination of the developed film will show whether it was exposed correctly for the development process used.
What they really mean when they describe an image as over/under exposed is that they see the image as being too light or too dark.
As noted above, with slide film that uses standardized processing (i.e. E-6), exposure does determine image lightness. However, with some slide films it may be desirable to overexpose the film slightly to get more pleasing colors (lightness).
Fortunately, there is no switch in your car that reverses the function of the accelerator and brake pedal.
A vacuum leak in the brake booster will result in the brake pedal causing the engine to accelerate. Ask me how I know.
@DannoB has written:I would have left the iso at 3200 and set the final image lightness in post.
For many cameras raising iso for a given exposure* reduces read noise.ISO 3200 would have nuked the highlights (4 stops beyond clipping). This was an extreme scene with ridiculous dynamic range. This was as much a technical ISO invariance exercise as a an attempt to take decent shot. The highlights where recorded just below clipping at base ISO
@DannoB has written:By lowering the iso you probably increased the read noise.
.Yes, but just a bit,
@DannoB has written:It depends on which is more important, read noise or dynamic range.
In this case there was no choice, any increase in ISO would have necessitated a reduction in sensor exposure (which would be worse).
I must say, the old DPR forums were more intuitive to use than here. This will take some getting used to.
Ok, it wasn't clear to me if iso 3200 was actually set or not. I assumed it was.
@DannoB has written:When someone says an image is over or under exposed they are in effect just guessing as to whether the best exposure was used or not by the photographer unless they are certain of the photographer's artistic intentions.
This is not true for film, where an examination of the developed film will show whether it was exposed correctly for the development process used.
Quoted message:What they really mean when they describe an image as over/under exposed is that they see the image as being too light or too dark.
As noted above, with slide film that uses standardized processing (i.e. E-6), exposure does determine image lightness. However, with some slide films it may be desirable to overexpose the film slightly to get more pleasing colors (lightness).
I have never used film so I wouldn't know.
From your reply I assume you agree what I posted is true for digital.
@TechTalk has written:Fortunately, there is no switch in your car that reverses the function of the accelerator and brake pedal.
A vacuum leak in the brake booster will result in the brake pedal causing the engine to accelerate. Ask me how I know.
I'm glad you're still around to relate that to us!
@ErikWithaK has written: @DannoB has written:I would have left the iso at 3200 and set the final image lightness in post.
For many cameras raising iso for a given exposure* reduces read noise.ISO 3200 would have nuked the highlights (4 stops beyond clipping). This was an extreme scene with ridiculous dynamic range. This was as much a technical ISO invariance exercise as a an attempt to take decent shot. The highlights where recorded just below clipping at base ISO
@DannoB has written:By lowering the iso you probably increased the read noise.
.Yes, but just a bit,
@DannoB has written:It depends on which is more important, read noise or dynamic range.
In this case there was no choice, any increase in ISO would have necessitated a reduction in sensor exposure (which would be worse).
I must say, the old DPR forums were more intuitive to use than here. This will take some getting used to.
Ok, it wasn't clear to me if iso 3200 was actually set or not. I assumed it was.
I generally shoot with Auto-ISO with exposure compensation, had I not dialed it way back, the ISO would have been at 3200 and the highlights would be toast.
I generally shoot with Auto-ISO with exposure compensation, had I not dialed it way back, the ISO would have been at 3200 and the highlights would be toast.
I also prefer Auto ISO as described in my "Why are my photos noisy?" thread on this forum.
Anyway, earlier you asked if your posted raw file was under exposed.
I replied under what circumstances I would see it as under exposed* or not.
* exposure - amount of light striking the sensor per unit area while the shutter is open.
an examination of the developed film will show whether it was exposed correctly for the development process used.
For the same processing, I expose differently for optical print and for scanning. The factor here is what I'm going to do with the film.