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A new exposure triangle for raw shooters

JimKasson
June 11, 2023
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    finnan
    Members 322 posts
    June 12, 2023, 9:12 p.m. June 12, 2023, 9:12 p.m.
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    HAND.

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    JimKasson
    Members 1738 posts
    June 12, 2023, 11:02 p.m. June 12, 2023, 11:02 p.m.
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    @finnan has written:

    Either the base is not arbitrary,
    or the "11" is pulled out of thin air.

    The 11 was necessary to deal with the range of ISOs.

    Deleted and IliahBorg like this.

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    IliahBorg
    Members 976 posts
    June 13, 2023, 12:07 a.m. June 13, 2023, 12:07 a.m.
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    @finnan has written:

    the "11" is pulled out of thin air

    BTW, for scenes wider than 11 stops lens flare starts to undercut linearity.
    www.rawdigger.com/howtouse/Dynamic-range-fair-share-of-flare-and-glare

    JohnVickers likes this.

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    finnan
    Members 322 posts
    June 13, 2023, 12:09 a.m. June 13, 2023, 12:09 a.m.
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    HAND.

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    JimKasson
    Members 1738 posts
    June 13, 2023, 12:12 a.m. June 13, 2023, 12:12 a.m.
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    @finnan has written:

    Oh, so you just choose the number of stops so they match the number of ISO ranges in your graph, thus getting an isosceles triangle.
    Nice trick.

    Thank you, but it's not an isosceles triangle. It's a right triangle. It's just a teaching aid.

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    JimKasson
    Members 1738 posts
    June 13, 2023, 12:15 a.m. June 13, 2023, 12:15 a.m.
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    x2d 14-bit hi lo EDR.png

    This is camera-specific, but it does show how both ends of the SNR=0 EDR vary with ISO setting. I need to work a bit more on this presentation.

    x2d 14-bit hi lo EDR.png

    PNG, 81.7 KB, uploaded by JimKasson on June 13, 2023.

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    finnan
    Members 322 posts
    June 13, 2023, 12:21 a.m. June 13, 2023, 12:21 a.m.
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    HAND.

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    JimKasson
    Members 1738 posts
    June 13, 2023, 12:25 a.m. June 13, 2023, 12:25 a.m.
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    @finnan has written:

    Right triangle or not, if row and colum labels have the same distance increment it's isoceles for sure.

    You could make it an isosceles triangle if you did that.

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    finnan
    Members 322 posts
    June 13, 2023, 12:36 a.m. June 13, 2023, 12:36 a.m.
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    HAND.

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    JohnMoyer
    Members 83 posts
    June 13, 2023, 3:47 p.m. June 13, 2023, 3:47 p.m.
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    @JimKasson has written:

    What the graphic does show is the effect of ISO setting on full scale with full scale measured in lux-seconds of exposure.

    What definition for ISO are you using? What does the camera do when the ISO setting is changed? Do all cameras do the same thing when the ISO setting is changed?

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    JimKasson
    Members 1738 posts
    June 13, 2023, 3:54 p.m. June 13, 2023, 3:54 p.m.
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    @JohnMoyer has written:

    What definition for ISO are you using?

    Whatever the camera manufacturer chooses.

    @JohnMoyer has written:

    What does the camera do when the ISO setting is changed?

    In the vast majority of the cases, it applies conversion gain, analog gain, and/or digital gain to the sensor photodiode charge..

    @JohnMoyer has written:

    Do all cameras do the same thing when the ISO setting is changed?

    Not all. The Fuji GFX 50S and 50R are an exception at some ISO settings. But not the GFX 50S II.

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    bastibe
    Members 60 posts
    June 14, 2023, 4:46 a.m. June 14, 2023, 4:46 a.m.
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    For dual-gain sensors, the diagonal should have a step at some ISO. At least that's what photonstophotos shows for my Fuji gear.

    But in general, I agree with the graph's sentiment.

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    SrMi
    Members 457 posts
    June 14, 2023, 6:28 a.m. June 14, 2023, 6:28 a.m.
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    @bastibe has written:

    For dual-gain sensors, the diagonal should have a step at some ISO. At least that's what photonstophotos shows for my Fuji gear.

    But in general, I agree with the graph's sentiment.

    Dual conversion gain sensors do not affect clipping. They affect only read noise.

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    bastibe
    Members 60 posts
    June 14, 2023, 8:10 a.m. June 14, 2023, 8:10 a.m.
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    @SrMi has written:
    @bastibe has written:

    For dual-gain sensors, the diagonal should have a step at some ISO. At least that's what photonstophotos shows for my Fuji gear.

    But in general, I agree with the graph's sentiment.

    Dual conversion gain sensors do not affect clipping. They affect only read noise.

    True enough, but dynamic range is always in reference to a baseline noise level, right?

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    SrMi
    Members 457 posts
    June 14, 2023, 9:21 a.m. June 14, 2023, 9:21 a.m.
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    @bastibe has written:
    @SrMi has written:
    @bastibe has written:

    For dual-gain sensors, the diagonal should have a step at some ISO. At least that's what photonstophotos shows for my Fuji gear.

    But in general, I agree with the graph's sentiment.

    Dual conversion gain sensors do not affect clipping. They affect only read noise.

    True enough, but dynamic range is always in reference to a baseline noise level, right?

    I do not follow. The graphics does not relate to DR.

    JimKasson and IliahBorg like this.

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    JohnSheehyRev
    Members 549 posts
    June 14, 2023, 1:01 p.m. June 14, 2023, 1:01 p.m.
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    @SrMi has written:
    @bastibe has written:

    For dual-gain sensors, the diagonal should have a step at some ISO. At least that's what photonstophotos shows for my Fuji gear.

    But in general, I agree with the graph's sentiment.

    Dual conversion gain sensors do not affect clipping. They affect only read noise.

    Well, the two conversion gains should give different absolute clipping levels in the photosites, but it doesn't usually show because the digitization clips lower than FWC.

    Most references to FWC that you see are really about the digitization clipping at base ISO, not the actual "well". It is impossible to measure FWC on most real world cameras, unless you can hack the system and use a lower analog gain after the source follower than the firmware normally uses.

    bastibe and IliahBorg like this.

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    JimKasson
    Members 1738 posts
    June 14, 2023, 2:49 p.m. June 14, 2023, 2:49 p.m.
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    @JohnSheehyRev has written:
    @SrMi has written:

    Dual conversion gain sensors do not affect clipping. They affect only read noise.

    Well, the two conversion gains should give different absolute clipping levels in the photosites, but it doesn't usually show because the digitization clips lower than FWC.

    I don't consider what happens at the photosites clipping. It's more gradual than that. The ADC clips hard.

    @JohnSheehyRev has written:

    Most references to FWC that you see are really about the digitization clipping at base ISO, not the actual "well".

    Correct. That's what this graphic shows.

    SrMi likes this.

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    JimKasson
    Members 1738 posts
    June 14, 2023, 2:50 p.m. June 14, 2023, 2:50 p.m.
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    Here's a teaser on where I'm starting to take this:

    z7 efcs 14-bit hi lo EDR.png

    z7 efcs 14-bit hi lo EDR.png

    PNG, 121.7 KB, uploaded by JimKasson on June 14, 2023.

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