The arguments thread

If Mako had been moderating this thread, how many people would have been sandboxed?

28 votes.
Started by bobn2 on May 2, 2023.

0-2

6 votes, 22% of total.

2-4

0 votes, 0% of total.

5-9

3 votes, 11% of total.

10-19

1 vote, 4% of total.

20 or more.

18 votes, 65% of total.

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bobn2
Team 2240 posts

May 1, 2023, 8:10 p.m. May 1, 2023, 8:10 p.m.
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@Stig has written:

DPReplication!

Come on, you're going to bankrupt me, securing new URLs.

Mackiesback, TheDavinator, AlainCh2 and 1 other user like this.

favorite 4
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JACS
Members 878 posts

May 1, 2023, 8:15 p.m. May 1, 2023, 8:15 p.m.
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[deleted]
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Robert1955
Members 209 posts

May 1, 2023, 8:15 p.m. May 1, 2023, 8:15 p.m.
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@Stig has written:

@Robert1955 has written:

@Stig has written:

@BillFerris has written:

@DannoLeftForums has written:

@bobn2 has written:

@TheDavinator has written:

Bill, respect is earned…it isn’t deserved. I get the intention of your post, but I thought this needs be mentioned.

What's your starting configuration? If you meet someone that you don't know, will you treat them with respect or disrespect?

Of course the vast majority of people would treat someone they never met before with respect.

But that is not the case here because Mako2011 is at least somewhat known to members through his interactions with them at dpreview. Therefore it is totally reasonable for members who have had dealings with Mako2011 to decide for themselves how much respect they will give him here on dprevived based on their experiences with him at dpreview should he decide to become a member here.

It is not at the discretion of a member of DPRevived to choose to treat any other forum member with disrespect. Per the Member Guidelines Bob has shared...

You may not post or upload content which is liable to cause harm or
distress to other people, including personal abuse and offensive
discourse targeting a group or an individual based on inherent
characteristics (such as race, religion or gender) and that might
threaten social peace.

This is much more complex. The last part is the UN definition of
'hate speech', which must very definitely be kept off the site under
all circumstances. Content that is liable to cause harm or distress
is clearly more of a judgment. As a site, we will make that judgment
and remove material that we believe falls the wrong side. We would
much prefer it if our members make an appropriate judgment for
themselves, so we don't have to. Here are some guidelines.

Be empathetic. Something that would cause you distress would be
likely to cause others distress -- so don't subject others to
behaviour that you would not want inflicted on you.

Be aware of the medium. In face to face interaction we get cues
that give us feedback about how other people are reacting to
what we say. We don't get that over the web. So, one person
might think they are making a joke, whilst the other might find
what is said is insulting. Err on the safe side.

Be culturally aware. What people find distressing differs, and
this is an international site. Profanity, nudity and content of
a sexual nature can all fall foul of this difference. The Web is
not short of places where these types of subject can be
indulged, so don't use this one. All it will do is make this a
place where a lot of people don't want to be.

Don't be nasty. There is no real reason to descend to abuse and
name calling, so don't do it. In the end it weakens your side of
the argument.

Argue constructively. Robust and interesting discussions are at
the heart of the reason people come to this kind of site, but
let's keep them constructive. If you disagree with someone,
state why you disagree, don't just keep contradicting -- that
just results in your interlocutor becoming irritated. Don't
resort to ad-hominem arguments. They are always fallacious and
don't improve the tone of the conversation. Don't take umbrage
because your opinion is disputed, that's what discussion is
about. Show respect for the other party -- you might think you
have more experience and know better, but you could easily be
wrong.

Don't participate in bullying. We know how it works in the
school yard, the gang picks on the guy with the unpopular
opinions. Don't do it here.

Be sympathetic. All types come to this forum, including people
from different backgrounds, different cultures, the
neuro-divergent and people with different life histories who
have been through traumas you don't know about. You may think
that their behaviour is unreasonable, but there may be many
reasons for it. Don't make the situation worse by picking
disputes even if you feel that the other party is.

This is what I am referring to when stating that all members deserve to be treated with respect. I'm not talking about holding their actions or opinions in high regard. I'm talking about observing at least a minimum degree of courteousness in all interactions. We don't criticize or debate the value of a person. Disagreement over opinions about photographic equipment, practices and the quality of a photo are, of course, allowed. One could argue those disagreements are encouraged. But the expectation is that no member will conduct themselves in a manner that could be construed as bullying or as targeting another person in a manner that would cause that person distress.

In short, no DPRevived member has a right to treat any other member in a disrespectful manner in the forums or through the site's IM tool.

Quoted message:

If I used your logic then that means just because I have never met DonaldB in person then I should respect him here at dprevived........yeah right 😉 ............I think hell will probably freeze over first 😊

Treating other members with respect simple means following the member guidelines. It has nothing to do with whether or not your like the person or agree with the opinions they express. Disliking a person is not justification for treating them in manner a reasonable person would construe as bullying or distressful in the forums or through the site's IM tool. Disagreeing with a stated opinion is also not justification for disrespectful treatment of another member.

We can disagree without being disagreeable.

@DannoLeftForums has written:

@bobn2 has written:

The idea that it must be 'earned' sounds like you'll start-off disrespecting them until you decide that they've earned respect.

Not in the case where I had no dealings at all with that person. See above.

In the case where members know Mako2011 through their dealings with him at dpreview and for whatever reason have little respect for him, then yes it is totally reasonable that Mako2011 would have to earn those members' respect back if he was interested in rebuilding bridges here on dprevived.

@bobn2 has written:

Now put the boot on the other foot. How about if you start chatting with someone and they disrespect you from the get-go. How's that feeling for you?

If they had reason to disrespect me from past experiences then I wouldn't be surprised. If I had never dealt with them before then it would reflect very poorly on them as a person.

Insert eyeroll here...

Bit over the top there Bill, and I say that with the utmost respect, in case it triggers an inner snowflake in you.

I think you are the one who is over the top here. The name of this site is not DPRevenge

Wanting to close 'open discussion' over a topic that produces discomfort for some is not a valid argument. People do not want DPReplication!

Where did Bill suggest that? I know others did but it was rejected. And talking about discomfort, you mentioning snowflakes, allusions to “NK” by others create a very uncomfortable itch with me.

jaberg likes this.

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AlainCh2
Members 535 posts

May 1, 2023, 8:16 p.m. May 1, 2023, 8:16 p.m.
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PLEASE, LEARN HOW TO UN-QUOTE !!!

🤦‍♂️🤣😂👀🤦‍♂️🤣😂👀🤦‍♂️🤣😂
✅✅✅✅✅✅✅✅✅✅✅

CrashpcCZ, InkedMarie and jaberg like this.

favorite 3
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Stig
Members 599 posts

May 1, 2023, 8:16 p.m. May 1, 2023, 8:16 p.m.
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@bobn2 has written:

@Stig has written:

DPReplication!

Come on, you're going to bankrupt me, securing new URLs.

Lol...
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bobn2
Team 2240 posts

May 1, 2023, 8:17 p.m. May 1, 2023, 8:17 p.m.
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@JACS has written:

@bobn2 has written:

You'd also have been uncourteous.

I would have been uncourteous if I replied.

Lack of self-restraint is a problem.
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JACS
Members 878 posts

May 1, 2023, 8:21 p.m. May 1, 2023, 8:21 p.m.
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[deleted]
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Stig
Members 599 posts

May 1, 2023, 8:22 p.m. May 1, 2023, 8:22 p.m.
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@Robert1955 has written:

@Stig has written:

@Robert1955 has written:

@Stig has written:

@BillFerris has written:

@DannoLeftForums has written:

@bobn2 has written:

@TheDavinator has written:

Bill, respect is earned…it isn’t deserved. I get the intention of your post, but I thought this needs be mentioned.

What's your starting configuration? If you meet someone that you don't know, will you treat them with respect or disrespect?

Of course the vast majority of people would treat someone they never met before with respect.

But that is not the case here because Mako2011 is at least somewhat known to members through his interactions with them at dpreview. Therefore it is totally reasonable for members who have had dealings with Mako2011 to decide for themselves how much respect they will give him here on dprevived based on their experiences with him at dpreview should he decide to become a member here.

It is not at the discretion of a member of DPRevived to choose to treat any other forum member with disrespect. Per the Member Guidelines Bob has shared...

You may not post or upload content which is liable to cause harm or
distress to other people, including personal abuse and offensive
discourse targeting a group or an individual based on inherent
characteristics (such as race, religion or gender) and that might
threaten social peace.

This is much more complex. The last part is the UN definition of
'hate speech', which must very definitely be kept off the site under
all circumstances. Content that is liable to cause harm or distress
is clearly more of a judgment. As a site, we will make that judgment
and remove material that we believe falls the wrong side. We would
much prefer it if our members make an appropriate judgment for
themselves, so we don't have to. Here are some guidelines.

Be empathetic. Something that would cause you distress would be
likely to cause others distress -- so don't subject others to
behaviour that you would not want inflicted on you.

Be aware of the medium. In face to face interaction we get cues
that give us feedback about how other people are reacting to
what we say. We don't get that over the web. So, one person
might think they are making a joke, whilst the other might find
what is said is insulting. Err on the safe side.

Be culturally aware. What people find distressing differs, and
this is an international site. Profanity, nudity and content of
a sexual nature can all fall foul of this difference. The Web is
not short of places where these types of subject can be
indulged, so don't use this one. All it will do is make this a
place where a lot of people don't want to be.

Don't be nasty. There is no real reason to descend to abuse and
name calling, so don't do it. In the end it weakens your side of
the argument.

Argue constructively. Robust and interesting discussions are at
the heart of the reason people come to this kind of site, but
let's keep them constructive. If you disagree with someone,
state why you disagree, don't just keep contradicting -- that
just results in your interlocutor becoming irritated. Don't
resort to ad-hominem arguments. They are always fallacious and
don't improve the tone of the conversation. Don't take umbrage
because your opinion is disputed, that's what discussion is
about. Show respect for the other party -- you might think you
have more experience and know better, but you could easily be
wrong.

Don't participate in bullying. We know how it works in the
school yard, the gang picks on the guy with the unpopular
opinions. Don't do it here.

Be sympathetic. All types come to this forum, including people
from different backgrounds, different cultures, the
neuro-divergent and people with different life histories who
have been through traumas you don't know about. You may think
that their behaviour is unreasonable, but there may be many
reasons for it. Don't make the situation worse by picking
disputes even if you feel that the other party is.

This is what I am referring to when stating that all members deserve to be treated with respect. I'm not talking about holding their actions or opinions in high regard. I'm talking about observing at least a minimum degree of courteousness in all interactions. We don't criticize or debate the value of a person. Disagreement over opinions about photographic equipment, practices and the quality of a photo are, of course, allowed. One could argue those disagreements are encouraged. But the expectation is that no member will conduct themselves in a manner that could be construed as bullying or as targeting another person in a manner that would cause that person distress.

In short, no DPRevived member has a right to treat any other member in a disrespectful manner in the forums or through the site's IM tool.

Quoted message:

If I used your logic then that means just because I have never met DonaldB in person then I should respect him here at dprevived........yeah right 😉 ............I think hell will probably freeze over first 😊

Treating other members with respect simple means following the member guidelines. It has nothing to do with whether or not your like the person or agree with the opinions they express. Disliking a person is not justification for treating them in manner a reasonable person would construe as bullying or distressful in the forums or through the site's IM tool. Disagreeing with a stated opinion is also not justification for disrespectful treatment of another member.

We can disagree without being disagreeable.

@DannoLeftForums has written:

@bobn2 has written:

The idea that it must be 'earned' sounds like you'll start-off disrespecting them until you decide that they've earned respect.

Not in the case where I had no dealings at all with that person. See above.

In the case where members know Mako2011 through their dealings with him at dpreview and for whatever reason have little respect for him, then yes it is totally reasonable that Mako2011 would have to earn those members' respect back if he was interested in rebuilding bridges here on dprevived.

@bobn2 has written:

Now put the boot on the other foot. How about if you start chatting with someone and they disrespect you from the get-go. How's that feeling for you?

If they had reason to disrespect me from past experiences then I wouldn't be surprised. If I had never dealt with them before then it would reflect very poorly on them as a person.

Insert eyeroll here...

Bit over the top there Bill, and I say that with the utmost respect, in case it triggers an inner snowflake in you.

I think you are the one who is over the top here. The name of this site is not DPRevenge

Wanting to close 'open discussion' over a topic that produces discomfort for some is not a valid argument. People do not want DPReplication!

Where did Bill suggest that? I know others did but it was rejected. And talking about discomfort, you mentioning snowflakes, allusions to “NK” by others create a very uncomfortable itch with me.

Depending on how one wants to read it, or re-read it, it is open to interpretation! Some would value a joking quip whilst others become rabid seething whatevers...
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johnapper10
Members 10 posts

May 1, 2023, 8:25 p.m. May 1, 2023, 8:25 p.m.
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hose moderators over there, they run a Sunday Scholl
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bobn2
Team 2240 posts

May 1, 2023, 8:33 p.m. May 1, 2023, 8:33 p.m.
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@JACS has written:

@bobn2 has written:

Lack of self-restraint is a problem.

My intention to ignore him is a sign of self-restraint, actually.

As you like.
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Mackiesback
Members 243 posts

May 1, 2023, 8:41 p.m. May 1, 2023, 8:41 p.m.
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@Stig has written:

@Mackiesback has written:

Man, I guess I have been living in a bubble. In 6 years at DPR, with 10k posts, in forums moderated by this Mako guy, I never heard from him once. I'm sorry some of you guys had a bad time, but the level of importance some are putting on this is surprising to me. Ragging on Bob for being emotionless, analytical and neutral in this situation is a good thing IMO. To those complaining about it, remember, you just might want the same treatment some day.

Anyway, the other thing I have learned is that exposure triangles and moderation are by far the hottest topics here. Glad we are so far removed from DPR.....LOL.

You just have selective attention. There are people who can walk through a bank robbery and not notice a thing at all, because they live inside their head...

www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJG698U2Mvo

I don't know. While I managed to stay off Mako's radar, I did not escape the crosshairs of TOF guy Thierry. Several hand slaps and time outs when countering something blow-hardy TO Shooter said.....LOL. I just didn't realize this Mako guy was so despised, I guess it was all behind the scenes.

I do remember when signing up here seeing names I had not seen in a long time, thought Oh goody, and figured they got permabans. They are the type.

jaberg likes this.

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DanHasLeftForum
Members 4254 posts

May 1, 2023, 9:08 p.m. May 1, 2023, 9:08 p.m.
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@nzmacro has written:

@DannoLeftForums has written:

@nzmacro has written:

Ahhh nothing, haven't got time for this at the moment,

No problem. I fixed your post.

Why, just finished sorting two databases. Is there an issue with that?

So that anyone interested can see how to post minus signs the way you wanted to but couldn't.

It's simple really. You can use the escape character just as I use it to display the asterisk in exposure* because the asterisk is also used by default in the post editor for text styling.
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Stig
Members 599 posts

May 1, 2023, 9:12 p.m. May 1, 2023, 9:12 p.m.
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@Mackiesback has written:

@Stig has written:

@Mackiesback has written:

Man, I guess I have been living in a bubble. In 6 years at DPR, with 10k posts, in forums moderated by this Mako guy, I never heard from him once. I'm sorry some of you guys had a bad time, but the level of importance some are putting on this is surprising to me. Ragging on Bob for being emotionless, analytical and neutral in this situation is a good thing IMO. To those complaining about it, remember, you just might want the same treatment some day.

Anyway, the other thing I have learned is that exposure triangles and moderation are by far the hottest topics here. Glad we are so far removed from DPR.....LOL.

You just have selective attention. There are people who can walk through a bank robbery and not notice a thing at all, because they live inside their head...

www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJG698U2Mvo

I don't know. While I managed to stay off Mako's radar, I did not escape the crosshairs of TOF guy Thierry. Several hand slaps and time outs when countering something blow-hardy TO Shooter said.....LOL. I just didn't realize this Mako guy was so despised, I guess it was all behind the scenes.

I do remember when signing up here seeing names I had not seen in a long time, thought Oh goody, and figured they got permabans. They are the type.

I could be wrong, but I believe Mako is not a guy, but a woman [but we won't go sideways trying to define one] and misogyny doesn't factor in here at all.
Her moderation was very questionable to many, and it's not a question of revenge towards her now, but rather the constraints she imposed [rightly/wrongly according to DPReviews stipulations], are something that should not be repeated here or endorsed if she were to ever become a Mod on this particular site. I believe the majority refuse the past style of moderation that impedes free discourse and open discussion about [within lawful reason] uncomfortable topics.
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Danny
Members 435 posts

May 1, 2023, 9:13 p.m. May 1, 2023, 9:13 p.m.
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@DannoLeftForums has written:

@nzmacro has written:

@DannoLeftForums has written:

@nzmacro has written:

Ahhh nothing, haven't got time for this at the moment,

No problem. I fixed your post.

Why, just finished sorting two databases. Is there an issue with that?

So that anyone interested can see how to post minus signs the way you wanted to but couldn't.

It's simple really. You can use the escape character just as I use it to display the asterisk in exposure* because the asterisk is also used by default in the post editor for text styling.

Alan is already working on it David.
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Mackiesback
Members 243 posts

May 1, 2023, 9:17 p.m. May 1, 2023, 9:17 p.m.
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@Stig has written:

I could be wrong, but I believe Mako is not a guy, but a woman [but we won't go sideways trying to define one] and misogyny doesn't factor in here at all.

Ah that's right. Just learned that today and forgot already.
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DanHasLeftForum
Members 4254 posts

May 1, 2023, 9:20 p.m. May 1, 2023, 9:20 p.m.
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@nzmacro has written:

@DannoLeftForums has written:

@nzmacro has written:

@DannoLeftForums has written:

@nzmacro has written:

Ahhh nothing, haven't got time for this at the moment,

No problem. I fixed your post.

Why, just finished sorting two databases. Is there an issue with that?

So that anyone interested can see how to post minus signs the way you wanted to but couldn't.

It's simple really. You can use the escape character just as I use it to display the asterisk in exposure* because the asterisk is also used by default in the post editor for text styling.

Alan is already working on it David.

That's fine.

Using the escape character is very quick and easy for me to use.
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GreatBustard
Members 695 posts

May 1, 2023, 9:47 p.m. May 1, 2023, 9:47 p.m.
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@nzmacro has written:

Sorry, I forgot we were in the presence of perfectness.

I'm sorry, but what do I have to do with any of this? : )

DannoLeftForums likes this.

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Danny
Members 435 posts

May 1, 2023, 10:47 p.m. May 1, 2023, 10:47 p.m.
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@GreatBustard has written:

@nzmacro has written:

Sorry, I forgot we were in the presence of perfectness.

I'm sorry, but what do I have to do with any of this? : )

Now how could I forget the GB ;-) Nice to see ya as always. Have you gone into the equivalence thread yet? They might need your help GB.

The arguments thread

If Mako had been moderating this thread, how many people would have been sandboxed?

PLEASE, LEARN HOW TO UN-QUOTE !!!