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Raw Histogram??

WhyNot
May 18, 2023
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    IliahBorg
    Members 976 posts
    May 20, 2023, 1:16 a.m. May 20, 2023, 1:16 a.m.
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    @DonaldB has written:
    @JimKasson has written:
    @DonaldB has written:

    not unless i see images of the rear LCD screens and raw histogram im not convinced.

    blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/histogram-example-normal-contrast-scene/

    blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/histograms-low-contrast-scene-with-specular-highlight/

    blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/histograms-high-contrast-scene/

    not a sony camera, as you quoted.

    You've seen that Adobe are adding 0.35 EV lightness to raw files from your camera to compensate. You've seen that if a scene contains a significant patch of saturated colour (red, for example) the histogram shows clipping where there is none.

    JimKasson likes this.

    favorite 1

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    IliahBorg
    Members 976 posts
    May 20, 2023, 1:18 a.m. May 20, 2023, 1:18 a.m.
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    @DonaldB has written:
    @IliahBorg has written:
    @DonaldB has written:

    you need to rework those tests

    Jim is correct.

    not unless i see images of the rear LCD screens and raw histogram im not convinced.

    That you can do, see those screens and raw histograms. Actually, you did, but you are not paying attention.

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    DanHasLeftForum
    Members 4254 posts
    May 20, 2023, 1:20 a.m. May 20, 2023, 1:20 a.m.
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    @IliahBorg has written:
    @JimKasson has written:
    @DannoLeftForums has written:

    So in the future if I posted something like "....contemporary camera meters are calibrated to output ~12.5% grey image lightness....", would you be comfortable with that?

    Sounds more cut and dried than it is. Maybe Iliah could give you a range.

    OM-1 is calibrated to less than 7%, that's slightly less than 4 stops down from clipping.

    ok, thank you 🙂 I didn't realise there was such a large range in the calibration of camera meters.

    At this stage I think I'll go with:

    "....contemporary camera meters are calibrated to output a firmware set image lightness...."

    Would you be comfortable with that if you saw it in my posts?

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    IliahBorg
    Members 976 posts
    May 20, 2023, 1:21 a.m. May 20, 2023, 1:21 a.m.
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    @DonaldB has written:

    6715.JPG

    @DonaldB has written:
    @IliahBorg has written:
    @DonaldB has written:

    olympus xz1

    That's one of the very few cameras that are calibrated in raw close to the standard.

    Funny that you should say that. because the exposure settings on that camera were always different than any other camera i owned. now i will compare it to my a74.

    just did the test and the A74 and XZ1 histograms maxed out showed the identical exposure. thats awesome. the olympus playback RGB histogram is unbelevabley detailed.

    1465.jpg

    6715 (2).jpg

    1/15 f/3.2 vs. 1/15 f/3.2+1. What's that +1?

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    IliahBorg
    Members 976 posts
    May 20, 2023, 1:24 a.m. May 20, 2023, 1:24 a.m.
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    @DonaldB has written:
    @JimKasson has written:
    @DonaldB has written:

    where is everyone getting the idea that incamera histograms are not acurate ?

    In my case, from testing. Here are a few of the cameras I've tested: Sony a7, a7II, a7III, a7R, a7RII, a7RIII, a7RIV, a7S, a7SII, a9, a9II. Nikon D3, D4, D5, D800, D810, D850, Z6, Z7, Z9. Fuji GFX 50S, GFX 50R, GFX 100, GFX 100S.

    seriously Jim, i think you need to rework those tests.

    xz1 studio.jpg

    olympus xz1.JPG

    1/20 on FastRawViewer screenshot, 1/25 on the LCD. Interesting.

    IanSForsyth likes this.

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    IliahBorg
    Members 976 posts
    May 20, 2023, 1:30 a.m. May 20, 2023, 1:30 a.m.
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    @DannoLeftForums has written:

    "....contemporary camera meters are calibrated to output a firmware set image lightness...."

    I think the notion that the calibration of the meters is guided by what the manufacturer wants it to be (and depends on what results in what they think is acceptable image quality) can be made more clear. Same camera may have different calibration for different ISO settings. It's all about what the manufacturer thinks is good enough output.

    TonyBeach likes this.

    favorite 1

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    DonaldB
    Members 2365 posts
    May 20, 2023, 1:49 a.m. May 20, 2023, 1:49 a.m.
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    @IliahBorg has written:
    @DonaldB has written:
    @JimKasson has written:
    @DonaldB has written:

    where is everyone getting the idea that incamera histograms are not acurate ?

    In my case, from testing. Here are a few of the cameras I've tested: Sony a7, a7II, a7III, a7R, a7RII, a7RIII, a7RIV, a7S, a7SII, a9, a9II. Nikon D3, D4, D5, D800, D810, D850, Z6, Z7, Z9. Fuji GFX 50S, GFX 50R, GFX 100, GFX 100S.

    seriously Jim, i think you need to rework those tests.

    xz1 studio.jpg

    olympus xz1.JPG

    1/20 on FastRawViewer screenshot, 1/25 on the LCD. Interesting.

    good catch. have no idea will have to look into that.

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    DonaldB
    Members 2365 posts
    May 20, 2023, 1:53 a.m. May 20, 2023, 1:53 a.m.
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    @IliahBorg has written:
    @DonaldB has written:

    6715.JPG

    @DonaldB has written:
    @IliahBorg has written:
    @DonaldB has written:

    olympus xz1

    That's one of the very few cameras that are calibrated in raw close to the standard.

    Funny that you should say that. because the exposure settings on that camera were always different than any other camera i owned. now i will compare it to my a74.

    just did the test and the A74 and XZ1 histograms maxed out showed the identical exposure. thats awesome. the olympus playback RGB histogram is unbelevabley detailed.

    1465.jpg

    6715 (2).jpg

    1/15 f/3.2 vs. 1/15 f/3.2+1. What's that +1?

    will check it out.
    checked it out thats just the over exposure amount form the cameras normal exposure, its not a correction.

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    DanHasLeftForum
    Members 4254 posts
    May 20, 2023, 2:04 a.m. May 20, 2023, 2:04 a.m.
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    @IliahBorg has written:
    @DannoLeftForums has written:

    "....contemporary camera meters are calibrated to output a firmware set image lightness...."

    I think the notion that the calibration of the meters is guided by what the manufacturer wants it to be (and depends on what results in what they think is acceptable image quality) can be made more clear. Same camera may have different calibration for different ISO settings. It's all about what the manufacturer thinks is good enough output.

    Ok. Now what Jim said about evaluative/matrix metering makes sense to me now.

    So, I'll simplify my proposed comment even more by going with something like:

    "....contemporary camera meters are calibrated to output their manufacturers' set image lightness...."

    which should cover all bases, hopefully 🙂

    Would you and Jim be comfortable with that if you saw it in my posts?

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    DonaldB
    Members 2365 posts
    May 20, 2023, 2:42 a.m. May 20, 2023, 2:42 a.m.
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    Quoted message:

    1/20 on FastRawViewer screenshot, 1/25 on the LCD. Interesting.

    Another set
    had to klean up my desktop theres that many images .

    6717 xz1.jpg
    preview histogram
    6717 xz1 ph.JPG
    Live histogram
    6717 live xz1.JPG

    this is showing clipping
    6717crop.jpg

    6717crop.jpg

    JPG, 144.8 KB, uploaded by DonaldB on May 20, 2023.

    6717 live xz1.JPG

    JPG, 1.5 MB, uploaded by DonaldB on May 20, 2023.

    6717 xz1 ph.JPG

    JPG, 402.8 KB, uploaded by DonaldB on May 20, 2023.

    6717 xz1.jpg

    JPG, 644.2 KB, uploaded by DonaldB on May 20, 2023.

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    DanHasLeftForum
    Members 4254 posts
    May 20, 2023, 2:53 a.m. May 20, 2023, 2:53 a.m.
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    @DonaldB

    On a side note:

    screenshot.jpg

    BBcode, like HTML tags, have no forward slash "/" in the opening tags. The closing tags have a forward slash.

    Also, opening/closing tag pairs need to match otherwise you end up with "ugly" looking posts with messed up code being displayed.

    In your above post, all you need to do is delete the forward slash in the opening quote tag.

    screenshot.jpg

    JPG, 39.7 KB, uploaded by DannoLeftForums on May 20, 2023.

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    DonaldB
    Members 2365 posts
    May 20, 2023, 4:06 a.m. May 20, 2023, 4:06 a.m.
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    awesome thanks for that, i hope i can remember for the next time.

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    DanHasLeftForum
    Members 4254 posts
    May 20, 2023, 4:20 a.m. May 20, 2023, 4:20 a.m.
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    No problem.

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    CrashpcCZ
    Members 360 posts
    May 20, 2023, 9:56 a.m. May 20, 2023, 9:56 a.m.
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    @JimKasson has written:

    I've sold all my Sony cameras.

    Why? "What are you on now?", please?

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    DonaldB
    Members 2365 posts
    May 20, 2023, 10:02 a.m. May 20, 2023, 10:02 a.m.
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    Jim is shooting MF Hasselblad.

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    bobn2
    Team 2240 posts
    May 20, 2023, 10:14 a.m. May 20, 2023, 10:14 a.m.
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    @DannoLeftForums has written:

    ok, thank you 🙂 I didn't realise there was such a large range in the calibration of camera meters.

    0.1 EV - not a huge tolerance.

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    DanHasLeftForum
    Members 4254 posts
    May 20, 2023, 10:31 a.m. May 20, 2023, 10:31 a.m.
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    @bobn2 has written:
    @DannoLeftForums has written:

    ok, thank you 🙂 I didn't realise there was such a large range in the calibration of camera meters.

    0.1 EV - not a huge tolerance.

    I'm not sure which tolerance you are referring to.

    I was referring to the 18% grey I originally mentioned and Jim's ~12.5% and Iliah's 7%.

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    DonaldB
    Members 2365 posts
    May 20, 2023, 10:36 a.m. May 20, 2023, 10:36 a.m.
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    @DannoLeftForums has written:
    @bobn2 has written:
    @DannoLeftForums has written:

    ok, thank you 🙂 I didn't realise there was such a large range in the calibration of camera meters.

    0.1 EV - not a huge tolerance.

    I'm not sure which tolerance you are referring to.

    I was referring to the 18% grey I originally mentioned and Jim's ~12.5% and Iliah's 7%.

    some go to 22%

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